Liberty and Leadership
TFAS has reached 53,000 students and professionals through their academic programs, fellowships and seminars. Representing more than 140 countries, TFAS alumni are courageous leaders throughout the world – forging careers in politics, government, public policy, business, philanthropy, law and the media. Join TFAS President, Roger Ream, as he reconnects with these outstanding alumni to share experiences, swap career stories, and find out what makes their leadership journey unique. The Liberty and Leadership podcast is produced at Podville Media in Washington, D.C. If you have a comment or question for the show, please drop us an email at podcast@TFAS.org.
Liberty and Leadership
Unyielding Resolve: Captive Nations and the Path to Freedom with Paula Dobriansky
Roger welcomes Ambassador Paula Dobriansky, the former Under Secretary of State for Democracy and Global Affairs and editor of her father Lev Dobriansky’s newly released book, “Unyielding Resolve: Captive Nations and the Path to Freedom.”
Together, they discuss Lev Dobriansky’s work advocating for the rights of captive nations, his role in establishing an annual Captive Nations Week proclamation signed by U.S. presidents, the historical significance of the captive nations concept and its continued relevance today - particularly in light of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Plus, reflections on the legacy of President Ronald Reagan and the importance of the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation.
Paula is a foreign policy expert and holds degrees in Soviet political and military affairs from Harvard University and is the recipient of the Secretary of State’s highest honor, the Distinguished Service Medal. She serves as the vice chair of the Atlantic Council’s Scowcroft Center for Strategy and Security, as a Senior Fellow at Harvard Kennedy School’s Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs and as a member of the TFAS Board of Trustees
During TFAS D.C. Summer Programs, TFAS holds the annual “Dobriansky Lecture on Political Economy” in memory of her father Lev Dobriansky who was a longtime professor at Georgetown University and the U.S. Ambassador to the Bahamas. Lev was also the founding director of the first TFAS program in 1970.
The Liberty + Leadership Podcast is hosted by TFAS president Roger Ream and produced by Podville Media. If you have a comment or question for the show, please email us at podcast@TFAS.org. To support TFAS and its mission, please visit TFAS.org/support.
Welcome to the Liberty and Leadership Podcast, a conversation with TFAS alumni, faculty and friends who are making an impact. Today I'm your host, roger Ream. Today I'm honored to have Ambassador Paula Dobriansky, the former Undersecretary of State for Democracy and Global Affairs, as my guest on the Liberty and Leadership podcast. Paula is a foreign policy expert and she serves as the vice chair of the Atlantic Council's Scowcroft Center for Strategy and Security, as a senior fellow at the Kennedy School's Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs at Harvard and as a member of the TFAS Board of Trustees affairs at Harvard and is a member of the TFAS Board of Trustees. Paula holds degrees in Soviet political and military affairs from Harvard University and is the recipient of the Secretary of State's highest honor, the Distinguished Service Medal.
Speaker 1:During TFAS's summer programs, we hold an annual Lev Dobriansky Lecture in Political Economy in memory of her father, lev Dobriansky, who was a longtime professor at Georgetown University and US Ambassador to the Bahamas. Lev was also the founding director of the first TFAS program in 1970. Paula is the editor of her father's newly released book Unyielding Resolve, captive Nations and the Path to Freedom, just published in February by the Hoover Institution. Paula, it's great to have you with me on the Liberty and Leadership Podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Good morning Roger. I'm very delighted to be here.
Speaker 1:I am so looking forward to talking about this book Unyielding, resolve Captive Nations and the Path to Freedom. It's quite, this book Unyielding, resolve Captive Nations and the Path to Freedom. It's quite a book and you had an important role in getting it published. I'd like to begin by talking a little bit about your father, the author of the book, lev Dobriansky. I was blessed attending a Fund for American Studies program while a college student to be in a program that he was directing, so we got to have him lecture to us and I still remember a lecture he gave about the Soviet Union. This was 1976, of course, right at the middle of the Cold War and he really emphasized the distinction between Russia and Ukraine and the other republics of the Soviet Union, and that left a lasting impression on me and that comes through in this book. Could you give me a little background about your father before we talk about the book itself?
Speaker 2:Well, first I'd start with, my father had a number of titles. He certainly was Professor Dobriansky. He taught for over, I believe, 30-some years at Georgetown University. He was a professor of economics and I love to hear the stories about him because there are so many. I mean truly, and in fact it's fun to hear students tell me that they would give him some I'll use a word kind of pet names, pet names that they liked. And when I asked them I said, well, what does that mean? And they said, you know what? We gave only our professors, who we adored, really, those pet names. So he was a professor of economics, like I said, for some 30 years at Georgetown University. He, by the way, I should go back.
Speaker 2:He was born in the United States to parents who immigrated from Ukraine. His entire side and background, both sides of his family, are Ukrainian descent. He was born in New York City. He went to NYU where he got his undergraduate degree, his master's degree and PhD, so he's also Dr Dobriansky. His PhD was on Thorsten Veblen and he wrote a book actually, or turned his dissertation into Veblenism, which was a very interesting topic and one that he also felt very proud that he wrote about. And so with that background he was looking for a professorial position and then he did end up at Georgetown where, as I said, he was there for some 30 plus years.
Speaker 2:He became, in the Reagan administration, ambassador to the Bahamas, so he also has an ambassadorial title and in that regard he was a very active, engaged ambassador. There were a lot of challenging issues. There was the Autech basing agreement that was signed on his watch and then also during that time there were a lot of sting operations because of narcotics trafficking in and throughout the Caribbean. Finally, I'll just say this he's an author of quite a few books USA and the Soviet Myth, the Vulnerable Russians, and then this book which we're talking about today, unyielding Resolve, and the formal title Captive Nations and the Path to Freedom, which I'm very excited about talking, if you don't mind, roger.
Speaker 2:One last point I'd like to make, because I think you also knew my mother, julia Dobriansky, and I do want to say she was an educator herself. They met at NYU and my mother got her master's degree from Columbia University. Both of my parents were educators. My mother chose after that, when they married, to raise two children, me and my sister, but the two of them were very engaged in matters concerning Ukraine Because my dad was president of the Ukrainian Congress Committee of America. Both of them were very, very engaged in looking at the issue of captive nations.
Speaker 1:Yes, and raised two very successful daughters who had a good portion of your careers in public service to our country, which is marvelous, and your sister attended one of our programs when she was a college student. That's correct. This book there's a story here, I think, because it was published 17 years after your father passed away. How did it come about? I understand he wrote it out longhand on legal pads. And tell me a little bit about that story before we dig into the themes itself.
Speaker 2:My dad was a traditionalist, he wasn't using a computer. He actually was writing chapters of the book. Actually, sometimes, well, it would be in different locations, including on a humorous note, my dad certainly maintained a tan, as you know, I think, almost year-round. So some of these chapters were written on, maybe on the beach in Miami Beach, but yes, these chapters were on these long legal yellow legal pad. He would pass chapters to me and you know he'd basically say here, hold it now, we're going to talk about it, we're going to talk about it. And quite honestly and sadly, my father did pass away. I believe that virtually, it was almost at the very, very end of the book, virtually. I think he maybe was looking at having maybe a wrap-up section, but I think all of the chapters that he had wanted to address it was finished. If you want to know, when I had this and I looked through all of it, the first order of business for me was to get it on a computer, and so that was the first order of business. It was put on a computer and then after that, if you'll note, on the cover of the book it mentions edited by me and Prateek Chagul, and Prateek, who has been a fellow associated with the Fund for American Studies. We're very lucky indeed for that. That. He was very engaged in, by the way, shortening the document.
Speaker 2:Hoover was interested in looking at my dad's manuscript. We had conversations with Hoover and, candidly speaking, as you can imagine, with all publishing you know you have to follow the rules and the regulations of the publishers and my dad's original was like some 800 pages and, by the way, I will be soon I'll try to work it but to get actually the full chapters over to the Hoover Archives. So anyone who wants to really look and dig deep in all the research that he did, it will be there. But the book itself was, ultimately it was condensed down and published by Hoover Institution Press, which we're very grateful for. So that's the story and that's why it took a number of years, quite honestly, getting the chapters, taking them, inserting them into the computer, taking some 800 pages. So it was quite a lot that had to be sifted through and, candidly speaking, I think actually there were several rounds of editing, not only editing on our part but also on the part of Hoover Institution's own editors.
Speaker 1:You got it down to it's under 300 pages, including the notes and the forward and epilogue, and very readable.
Speaker 2:Roger, may I just inject one thing, forgive me. I actually I'm glad for that because I think the substance it is very readable. It's very precise what my father had, which I think is of great value for the archives. He had a lot of research attached to the substance of the book, so there were testimonies that were inserted, statements made by members of Congress, proclamations, a lot of data that, by the way you know, is important for historians to look back and see what was written at the time and not just by my father. So that was, I would say. A good portion was taken out, but that will be available, certainly ultimately on the Hoover Institution's archival website.
Speaker 1:And it's extremely timely, of course, in that it was released on the three-year anniversary of the Russian invasion of Ukraine and we were pleased to do a book event at the Fund for American Studies and pleased that C-SPAN has recorded that and that'll be aired sometime soon and be permanently on their website and available, and you brought some experts together to talk about the substance of the book. So let me dig into it a little here. One thing is the subtitle mentions captive nations and many people probably don't know what that term captive nations involves. Could you explain a little of that history and your father's key role in that whole issue In?
Speaker 2:1959, my father wrote a resolution PL 8690, public Law 8690, which was the Captive Nations Week resolution. The resolution specifically called upon not just only Congress in this regard, but the President of the United States, for every year, for the third week of July, to issue a proclamation, and the proclamation would be focused on those captive nations, what my father was specifically referring to and, by the way, I should mention 1959, the first president who in fact signed the very first proclamation and embraced the resolution was President Dwight D Eisenhower, and it focused on those countries that were impacted by tyrannical governments. Here the proclamation and also the resolution would focus on, in particular, russian imperialism. It wasn't only about Russian communism, if you will, because, yes, we knew the existence of the Soviet Union at the time, but this was also about Russian statecraft and Russian imperialism and specifically focusing on countries like those in Central and Eastern Europe, countries like Poland, like Hungary, like the Czech Republic, like, also looking at China, looking at Cuba. Also, we must remember the Baltic states. The Baltic states never recognized their forced incorporation into, then, the Soviet Union.
Speaker 2:Core essence of it was all of these captive nations, and the captive nations list the original one and the one to this day focuses on those countries that are not free, that their governments are tyrannical, that they repress their population, they don't have freedom of the press, they don't have freedom of religion, they are repressed in many different ways, and so that's what its focus is, fundamentally. I'd like to, by the way, if I can, david Rivkin, who was a student at Georgetown and then he became my father's teacher's assistant. He wrote the foreword to the book and he also wrote the epilogue to the book, and I think that he gave the essence of what this was all about and what the book is about. May I read that if you don't mind, roger?
Speaker 1:Please do. I suspect it's something that I was going to ask you about, so yes, please do.
Speaker 2:David basically was saying to educate policymakers and the next generation and to document the story of captive nations, as it has never been detailed. And by the way, if that was a question for me, the book does that, and this is David's quote to ascribe pivotal importance to the dominant imperialist strain in Russian history and statecraft, regarding it as the most compelling driver of Soviet domestic repression and external aggression. And then he goes on to say the book seeks to articulate the captive nation's concept as an explanation of Russian conduct, contrasting it with the most common explanations of the sources. So I wanted to weave in here that basically you're asking me about the origins and I wanted to not just describe the origins, because the origins certainly are based on PL 8690, which is a resolution that was a bipartisan resolution, that Dwight D Eisenhower, the first president who signed a proclamation that very third week of July, and every president, by the way, since that time has signed a proclamation and has spoken to this issue of freedom of those that are repressed, and here with a focus particularly on Russian imperialism.
Speaker 2:And I will add just one last thing I think it was very significant that every president since Dwight T Eisenhower forward has issued a proclamation. I think that ascribes the importance to which all of our presidents have really underscored the importance of freedom, universal freedom for all, and that no one, no one, should be repressed, no matter where they are living. And the essence was that those nationalities Ukrainians, Latvians, Lithuanians and, by the way, there are many ethnics Poles who live in the United States, and we know about them that all of them have a right to their own culture, to their language, to live in peace, and that is what Captive Nations is about. It's a reminder that for those that are repressed here, that we should not accept that state. That is just not something that we identify with.
Speaker 1:Well, if history is a guide, we'll always have a need for a captive nations proclamation, but we'll continue to strive for the freedom and human rights that those people all deserve in those captive countries and human rights that those people all deserve in those captive countries.
Speaker 2:I'd like to think, Roger, that we should have hope and that there will be some day that there won't be that need and that someday that there is a universe where there is no such repression of people and for them to be themselves and who they are ethnically.
Speaker 1:Now, since you brought up David Rivkin, let me ask you in the epilogue, I think it is, he mentions a statement of your father's which went something like Russia minus Ukraine equals zero, and that comes out in his book as well. But could you explain what is meant by that?
Speaker 2:Yes, well, as we know, there have been these statements made that Ukraine is not Ukraine, ukraine is Russia. The fact of the matter is Ukraine has been independent a number of times in its history. There is the Ukrainian language, there's the Ukrainian culture, there's Ukraine's own history and in this case, the fact of the matter is Ukraine should be able to live in peace and, by the way, have its peaceful relations with Russia, with Poland, with the Baltic states, with its neighborhood. And in this case I mean clearly what my father was underscoring was this issue about this kind of Russian imperial drive and imperial statecraft and that this kind of push to absorb Ukraine and to deny Ukraine as a nation. And in this case, I will say that the Ukrainian culture, the Ukrainian history is very, very rich say that the Ukrainian culture, the Ukrainian history is very, very rich.
Speaker 1:Ukraine is also a country that, if Russia controls it, I guess, provides Russia with a lot of what it lacks in terms of its production, of agriculture and industrial output, its seaports, its gateway to Europe, I guess.
Speaker 2:That is true. Ukraine is very rich, as we know, in critical minerals. Ukraine has a strategic, geopolitical or geostrategic position. Ukraine also is the breadbasket. It used to be called the breadbasket when it had been in the Soviet Union. We also know the Budapest Memorandum, where Ukraine was, by the way, forced to give up its nuclear weapons, which it did from the Budapest Memorandum. I was looking back here at that paragraph. I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to say here, let me, if I may put it best, in context. I gave my answer, but here David says Dobriansky has also consistently maintained that for a variety of geopolitical, economic and cultural reasons, ukraine loomed particularly large within the context of Russia's empire building.
Speaker 2:And that's what we were just talking about, roger, what you said about the economics and what I also said about its meaning. His thesis concerning the importance of the particularly nationalistic nature of Russian imperialism was criticized by some Western scholars who preferred alternative explanations for Soviet domestic and international contexts. Dobriansky's view of the importance of Ukraine was well captured in his favorite saying, quote Russia minus Ukraine equals zero to the pre-1917 Tsarist Empire and, following the Russian Revolution and a brief period of independence, experienced the same fate in the new version of Moscow's empire, and living and teaching in Washington DC, he was a witness and a key participant in many of the most important events in the 20th century American political history. Forgive me for reading it longer, but I did want to put it fully in context for your listenership.
Speaker 1:When we saw the Soviet Union dissolve in 1992 and earlier, the Berlin Wall come down and many of these countries gain their freedom, was there any thought then that there's no need for a captive nations proclamation?
Speaker 2:Eisenhower to the present did. No, I think there were many who wanted to watch, wait, see what was taking place. There was a reordering of the list. Some countries were taken off, some countries were kept on, and so basically it was an updating. But what we have seen in places like just to mention too China and Cuba, you still see those are on the captive nations list.
Speaker 1:I should let people know that the story of that public law and the renewal of it each year is captured in the book as well.
Speaker 2:One period that my father especially highlights.
Speaker 2:It was President Ronald Reagan who, we know, delivered the speech at the beginning of his own tenure as president.
Speaker 2:He delivered the speech declaring of the evil empire of then the Soviet Union, and it was on and during his tenure that we witnessed the breakup of the Soviet Union and he called it an evil empire.
Speaker 2:He also took real action in terms of giving a speech on what was called the Star Wars speech, on the Strategic Defense Initiative. Why? Because that was a time focused on nuclear weapons and about the concern about what was happening in the height, in the heyday of the Cold War and nuclear weapons being pointed at us and us having to have a kind of defensive strategy. So here let me just say that what was distinctive my father wrote about was that Ronald Reagan was the president who actually held at the White House an event, a big Captive Nations Day event. He invited in those representatives from the Captive Nations to be present at the ceremony, the signing of his proclamation. My father was present, there were many members of Congress who were present there who also stood by while the president was signing the proclamation, and that was a period where it was not just the issuance of the proclamation and the signing, roger, but actually an actual event that was held at the White House to commemorate Captive Nations and PL 8690.
Speaker 1:You served in the administration of President Reagan and I wonder if you could share just your thoughts about that president, because he played such a pivotal role in this collapse of the Soviet Union and the freeing of many people in this part of the world.
Speaker 2:I would be delighted to do so. I was, by the way, for any of your alum and also your students to know, I actually I started at the White House as an intern at the National Security Council. When the Reagan administration came in, I was brought on the National Security Council staff and I started at the age of 24. Richard Allen was the National Security Advisor, and some people who remember it actually remember the fact that Richard Allen himself was a very young National Security Advisor in the Nixon administration. I believe he was in his early 30s and then he came back again to serve in Reagan. But I mention that because it was a time that, to me, was very inspirational. Reagan was a president who had a real vision. He was staunchly anti-communist. He believed that communism tore at the very fabric of society and believed firmly in the captive nations concept that people have a right to be free, to be able to be their own ethnicity and not to be subjugated by any kind of tyrannical imposed rule.
Speaker 2:And so that was so inspirational. It was very, very inspirational because time and again, he spoke about freedom. And, on the staff, what was wonderful was being able to go to the Oval Office. There were many times I went to the Oval Office or participated in National Security Council meetings and I had the privilege of seeing Reagan in action. Reagan was someone who stood firm on his principles. We know how engaged he was with then Gorbachev. There was the very intense meeting in Reykjavik, and we also know when Reagan delivered his remarks at the Berlin Wall, when he said, mr Gorbachev, tear down that wall.
Speaker 2:So what was it like? For me, roger, it was truly. It had a mission, it had a focus and it was not only inspirational in terms of what we were about, but also there was an esprit de corps. It was one environment I was in in government where we really felt Reagan's slogan peace through strength, which, by the way, the Trump administration refers often to now. Peace through strength. I'm a firm believer in that and I think that Reagan made significant achievements because of it. So your students should definitely look back on the Reagan administration and learn from many of the lessons that we learned at that time in being to advance US national security interests.
Speaker 1:One other question I'd like to ask you. Another legacy of your father's and our friend Lee Edwards, who you and I both knew passed away in December of last year, is your father, I think, was founding chairman of the Victims of Communism Museum and Memorial Project and that has been remarkably successful. I know you're very involved in it now. Could you say something about that and your father's role?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. First, if I may say, I'm very proudly on the board, the board of trustees of the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation. I'd also like to just say just a word about Lee Edwards, a accomplished writer, author, historian, academic, activist and also a dear, dear friend of my father. They worked quite a bit on Captive Nations together. Lee Edwards, like my father, was staunchly anti-communist. They both believed very firmly in freedom and liberty and towards that end I had the great privilege of working after my father's passing, working directly with Lee Edwards and just a wonderful, wonderful man who has really left a real legacy for himself and all that he achieved, not just only there in the victims of communism, but also in advancing the conservative movement. For my father, my father very proudly joined forces with the co-founders of the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, founders of the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, that was Dr Lee Edwards and Dr Edwin Fulner, former CEO and head of the Heritage Foundation, and there my dad joined forces with them and to me, looking back, the culmination of their efforts is really just very significant.
Speaker 2:First there is the establishment of the foundation itself, also bringing in many countries that suffered under communism who also tell the story and the way in which they tell the story.
Speaker 2:There's a museum, and I hope your students come and see museum and the faculty comes and sees the museum, because the museum does tell a story and we're thankful for those contributors from those countries that were subjugated by Russian imperialism. And then, thirdly, there's also an education program, the belief and Lee Edwards felt fervently in this that as an academic and as a writer, he felt strongly that that story must be told. The next generations need to know the evils of communism and what it did to ravage so many societies and suppress them. My father joined forces. He was the chairman of the board and I have to say I feel very honored to be on that board at this time, but my father joined with them. And finally, there is a statue which is located close to Union Station in Washington DC and also Georgetown University's law school. There George W Bush gave a speech and, if you will, christened the Lady of Liberty, the statue of the Lady of Liberty, which is the statue that is in honor of those victims of communism.
Speaker 1:We do, paula, send students off to the museum to see that, because communism seems to be something in the past and they need to learn about it, because it still exists today and its history needs to be studied, and so we're pleased to have students go there, sometimes with our faculty for programming, and it's a marvelous, marvelous museum. Well, thank you for joining me today on the Liberty and Leadership Podcast. It's a great book Unyielding Resolve, captive Nations and the Path to Freedom, available through the Hoover Institution or on Amazon, and thank you for seeing it to publication. The hard work of you and Prateek Chagul to get it published is such a valuable contribution to our understanding of events that are happening right now in the world, especially in the war of aggression by Russia against Ukraine. So, thank you, paula. It's a pleasure to talk with you this morning. I appreciate it very much.
Speaker 2:Thank you, roger, it's been a real honor, and thank you for honoring my father by speaking about and featuring his book on your podcast this morning. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Liberty and Leadership podcast. If you have a comment or question, please drop us an email at podcast at tfasorg, and be sure to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app and leave a five-star review. Liberty and Leadership is produced at Podville Media. I'm your host, roger Ream, and until next time, show courage in things, large and small.
