Liberty and Leadership
TFAS has reached more than 46,000 students and professionals through their academic programs, fellowships and seminars. Representing more than 140 countries, TFAS alumni are courageous leaders throughout the world – forging careers in politics, government, public policy, business, philanthropy, law and the media. Join TFAS President, Roger Ream, as he reconnects with these outstanding alumni to share experiences, swap career stories, and find out what makes their leadership journey unique. The Liberty and Leadership podcast is produced at Podville Media in Washington, D.C. If you have a comment or question for the show, please drop us an email at podcast@TFAS.org.
Liberty and Leadership
Steering Toward Freedom with Vice President Mike Pence
On this very special episode of Liberty + Leadership, host Roger Ream is joined by the 48th Vice President of the United States Mike Pence for a fireside chat at the TFAS 2024 Summer Law Fellows Closing Ceremony. They discuss the state of religious liberty, how our nation maintains peace through strength, and why democracy depends on heavy doses of civility. Plus, the work of Advancing American Freedom (the host of the closing ceremony) and a Q&A with the TFAS Law Fellows.
Mike Pence is the 48th Vice President of the United States. Prior to that, he served as the 50th Governor of Indiana and as a member of the U.S. House of Representatives from Indiana. He’s currently the Founder of Advancing American Freedom, an organization that promotes and defends the successful policies of recent years that yielded unprecedented prosperity at home and restored America’s strength abroad, while elevating traditional American values.
The Liberty + Leadership Podcast is hosted by TFAS president Roger Ream and produced by Podville Media. If you have a comment or question for the show, please email us at podcast@TFAS.org. To support TFAS and its mission, please visit TFAS.org/support.
I know we live in a political time where particularly the media tends to reward the loudest and harshest voices and the clicks go to the people with the harshest, unkindest words. I tell people, you know you get 15 miles out of Washington DC. The people in this country actually get along pretty well and I think the American people long for us to restore a threshold of civility in public life. Hit hard on the issues and the differences. There are big debates about the size and scope of government, about values, about America's place in the world. But you can do it in a way that preserves the opportunity to find common cause down the road, and so I challenge these rising young legal scholars to, whether it's rewarded online or not, model it and never doubt the American people. American people, I think, are looking for leaders, at the end of the day, that will restore that civility to public life and move our nation forward.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Liberty and Leadership Podcast, a conversation with TFAS alumni, faculty and friends who are making an impact. Today I'm your host, roger Reed. Well, thank you, vice President Pence, very much for hosting this closing ceremony here at Advancing American Freedom. Thank you also, mark and Mr Vice President, for hosting two of our law fellows here. I know they had just a fantastic experience working with you at Advancing American Freedom, but we appreciate especially your time tonight because your schedule is a busy one. You had some very important meetings today. I read about and I know you value time with your wonderful, beautiful wife and family as well, so we're grateful to you for taking the time out to be with us. Since Mark talked about Advancing American Freedom and the great work you do here, I've worked with many of your colleagues here. Mark Short has been a friend for years, paul Teller and many others. Could you tell more about your motivation for founding this organization?
Speaker 1:I'd be happy to, but, Roger, first let me tell you what an honor it is to be able to host you here. The Fund for American Studies has been a bulwark for liberty and constitutional principle for generations in America and I want to invite everybody here to give you a round of applause for your extraordinary leadership. Thank you. I also want to congratulate all the graduates of the Summer Law Fellowship Program.
Speaker 1:I graduated from law school about a thousand years ago and would that, I would have had the summer that you've had to really drop anchor and listen to some of the great thought leaders in our country at the Fund for American Studies. So congratulations, each one of you. I know your futures are bright. It's a joy to be able to some of the great thought leaders in our country at the Fund for American Studies. So congratulations, each one of you. I know your futures are bright. It's a joy to be able to share this moment with you this summer. There are other heroes in the room that I've known for many years Don Devine. You can give him a round of applause too. When I first met Don Devine, our hair was not the same color.
Speaker 1:But he's been a lodestar in the conservative movement as long as I've been a part of it. I'm grateful to you, humbled by the words of Mark Wheat. He will be given his pink slip tomorrow for that excessive introduction. But Mark is singularly as I expect that you already know from your board, he singularly is one of the most thoughtful and principled constitutional attorneys in the United States. And I want to thank you, mark, for your great leadership in your career. And finally, despite the overly generous introduction, I hold the view that I am not the best Pence that was ever sent to Washington. I hold the view that I am not the best Pence that was ever sent to Washington DC. The other one was a Marine who actually served in Beirut in 1983, shipped out just before the worst single-day loss in the history of the Marine Corps. He went on to do everything that matters build a good name, a business, a wonderful family and for the last three terms he has served Indiana with enormous distinction and a commitment to principle. And since he will be hanging up his spurs in the House of Representatives at the end of this term, this might be one of my last opportunities in Washington DC to give you a chance to show all of our appreciation to Congressman Greg Pence for your career and your leadership. Proud of you, to Congressman Greg Pence, for your career and your leadership. Proud of you.
Speaker 1:We formed Advancing American Freedom when I left the White House, mostly because, roger, you know, when an administration comes to an end people are looking for jobs first and foremost, and I wanted to make sure that all the good thought leaders and policy people in the vice president's office had a place to go and continue the work in the conservative movement. We've been blessed to do that. But I will tell you to be perfectly transparent, over the last year and a half, back in my presidential campaign last year, I saw something afoot in the Republican Party that has given greater urgency to our work in advancing American freedom. That has given greater urgency to our work at advancing American freedom. See, I joined the Republican Party, having been the youth Democrat Party coordinator in my home county in Indiana, and I started to listen to the words and the ideals of the 40th president of the United States, and in Ronald Reagan I heard a commitment to a strong national defense, a commitment to a limited government as defined in the Constitution of the United States. I heard a commitment to family and life and traditional values, and I joined the Reagan Revolution and never looked back.
Speaker 1:But today, as has happened oftentimes in the history of the Republican Party since our 16th president minted it into existence, there's a movement I describe as populism unmoored to conservative principle, a populism that questions our commitment not only to our national defense but to American leadership in the world. A populism that seems prepared to ignore the fiscal crisis facing all the great graduates of this fellowship program, and a populism that wants to walk away from the most timeless values of life and family. Populism that wants to walk away from the most timeless values of life and family. And so, at Advancing American Freedom, we're simply determined to be that anchor to windward Roger. I don't know what the future holds, but I know who holds the future and, for my part, the calling of my life, the calling for our team, is to simply be a consistent, cheerful voice for that Reagan agenda, that conservative agenda, and I promise you we're going to continue to stand for those ideals. So help me God.
Speaker 2:I know one area of concern and focus for advancing American freedom is religious liberty, something you've always championed in your life and in your career. It's what brought the earliest settlers to this continent, and what brings many people here today is seeking religious liberty. Could you talk some about why you think it is it's constantly under threat, especially in recent decades, and how we can best defend it? I hope many of these law students here I imagine many of them will be involved in cases trying to protect religious liberty. What are your thoughts on the status of it now and why it's under such threat?
Speaker 1:Well, the freedom of religion is in many respects, our first freedom. It is, roger, as you just said eloquently, it's what drew Americans, first generations of Americans, here. The 200 years of our history before 1776 on this continent were largely forged, beginning with the idea that we were to be a shining city on a hill, and I think 11 of the 13 original colonies actually had recognized state religions. And so, when it came time for a national government, religions and so when it came time for a national government, the compromise of the summer of 1787, approved in 1789, included that Bill of Rights. And in the very first amendment which is in a sense was a compromise to get the thing passed, which my years in Congress, my brother years in Congress, know, sometimes you've got to add amendments to get things done. And the Bill of Rights was that, was a pledge that Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. There was never to be a national religion, nor should there ever be an established religion in America. Constitution prohibits it, but the free exercise clause is of equal importance in the life of the nation.
Speaker 1:People that would ask me back in my days on the radio, roger, they would say I'm listening to you, I'm trying to figure out where you're coming from. Are you a conservative, are you a libertarian? I would always answer it the same way. I'd say I'm a Christian, a conservative and a Republican, in that order. And my Christian faith is the most important thing in my life and in my family's life. So defending that has always been a lodestar for me the right of every American to live, to work, to worship according to the dictates of their conscience. But it's at the very heart of the American experiment. But it's under attack today in ways that these rising legal minds will recognize. But to me it represents a genuine challenge, and that is as some cultural mores have changed.
Speaker 1:There's almost an unavoidable clash between the freedom of religion and certain other rights that have been recognized by the Supreme Court, chief among them the Oberfeld case and the right of and I want to say, as I said when I was governor of Indiana, I don't think anyone should ever be discriminated against because who they are, who they love or what they believe. But it's a combination of understanding that, as the country recognizes relationships in new and in renewed ways in the last five years, we have to equally vigorously defend the right of people to believe and to live out that faith and live out that belief. But there represents a genuine clash there. It's not one that the Supreme Court was ignored.
Speaker 1:I'm very proud of the fact that, with the help of three of the appointments, and I'm incredibly proud of the three justices we appointed to the Supreme Court of the United States. But there have been some very, very encouraging decisions by this renewed and new conservative majority that have respected the freedom of religion, the freedom of conscience. But there's still much work to be done. Those lines are going to continue to be drawn and I think it's going to be imperative that men and women of principle in the practice of the law understand the vital, central importance of the freedom of religion and that the clash that will continue to occur between competing values in the society has to be resolved in a manner consistent with that core right, that God-given right to the free exercise of religion.
Speaker 2:Another issue that you are focused on at Advancing American Freedom, and one in which, as a governor, you were a leader, is education reform. You promoted school choice vouchers, charter schools. You're doing that now. We've seen a lot of progress since you were governor around the country. Are you optimistic that that will continue and that we'll have true educational choice for most Americans in the future?
Speaker 1:Roger, I would tell you I'm incredibly proud of the state of Indiana for being one of the early meccas for school choice. The first privately funded school voucher program in the country was created by a Hoosier by the name of J Patrick Rooney, state of Indiana. When I was governor, we had the largest school choice program in the country. I doubled it. But I will tell you, I think we're beginning to win that argument in large ways across the country. Notably, it would have been roughly our first year out of office that I was with Governor Doug Ducey, literally the day that a referendum had overturned what was the very first universal school choice program in America was defended in the state of Arizona. Arizona led the way. Arkansas has followed, other states have followed. I'm proud to say Indiana has essentially become a universal school choice state and I just hold the view that this is in many respects the civil rights issue of the 21st century and I think, quite frankly, we would see in surveys in Indiana back in the 1990s the African-American community was always considerably ahead of the rest of the population in their support for school choice. It's one of the things that I've never been able to square with the politics of the rest of the population in their support for school choice. It's one of the things that I've never been able to square with the politics of the Democratic Party, which, I would tell you, seven, eight out of 10 African Americans 20 years ago believed that parents ought to be able to choose where their kids go to school, regardless of their income or area code, but the Democratic Party hard over against school choice. I think it's created an opportunity where our administration and in states across the country there've been expanding support among minority populations because it's the notion that the pathway toward prosperity, the pathway toward opportunity, begins with a good education.
Speaker 1:I always thought that President Bush who you know, president George W Bush most eloquent statement was when he condemned, as he was advocating school choice and reform. He condemned what he called the soft bigotry of low expectations. He condemned the soft bigotry of low expectations. If you unpack that, it will really nurture your understanding and it'll challenge you. It'll challenge people in communities. I've spoken that way, used that quote many times around the country, because if you are prepared to say that there are some Americans that we just have to expect less of, we know what that's called, whereas the American ideal is that anybody can be anybody and that, given the opportunity, any American of any background, race, creed or color can achieve the American dream. And that's what school choice is built on, and I think it's an idea whose time has come.
Speaker 2:I was speaking this week with some of the students in our journalism program and they were thanking us for arranging such an exciting summer of events from the presidential debate coming in June, the attempted assassination attempt, they've had a summer they could write and write and write about. I just would love to ask you you no doubt watched some of the convention. You touched on the importance of sticking to those values that traditionally conservatives or Republicans have believed in free enterprise and strong America. Can you look in that crystal ball and give us any insights as to what you expect the next four months to be?
Speaker 1:like no, he might know.
Speaker 2:Don Devine wrote a column in September of 2023, making the argument that Republicans are wrong to be campaigning against President Biden. He's not going to be the candidate you face next year. Nobody listened to him until recently.
Speaker 1:You can applaud that if you want.
Speaker 2:That was pretty impressive. Well, let me ask this you were the 48th vice president of the United States. Can I speak to that though?
Speaker 1:Well, sure, I'm still optimistic about the future. I often tell people that in my 20 years of public service my opinion of government generally went down, but my opinion of the American people went up every year, every week, every day. And I was standing, I was doing some fly fishing in Montana. I didn't go to Milwaukee. I saw an article that said Penn State chooses Montana over Milwaukee.
Speaker 1:But I was standing there with a fellow that owned this great stretch of a river. He had his hands in his pockets and he looked at me and he goes what do you think? What do you think is going to happen? And I just looked at him. I said the only thing I know for sure is that the American people are going to sort this out and we're going to return our country to the principles and practices that we know have always made America strong and prosperous and free.
Speaker 1:I've always loved Karen and I try and do a little devotional time in the Bible in the mornings and we just the other day just read the verses where David's son Solomon becomes king and he has a prayer. He prays that God would give him a discerning heart to distinguish between right and wrong, and then he says for who is able to govern this great people of yours, and what I love about that was not just that Solomon knew whose he was, but he knew who he served. And I will tell you from the bottom of my heart my time as your vice president, my time as one of the governors in this country, my time as a member of Congress, seeing Americans in some of the most difficult times, seeing our troops in visits downrange. We serve a great people and the American people are going to steer toward freedom. No matter how chaotic today may seem, we're going to build a future of freedom for our nation. I believe it with all my heart.
Speaker 2:And in his opening remarks tonight, colin Parks, who directs this program, quoted one of my favorite statements from Randy Barnett that our Constitution is the document that governs those who govern us, and Randy goes on to say that it's only government officials who swear an oath to uphold it. The American people don't swear an oath to uphold the Constitution. It's something that applies to those who govern us, and he's very good in talking about that. Now. You swore that oath and then, on January 6th of 2021, you were in a position where you faced a lot of pressure but proved a profile in courage by upholding the Constitution. Would you comment some on that? How you faced that? You know what drove you.
Speaker 1:Well, roger. Thank you. I'm very humbled by your words and the encouragement. Those were difficult days, but for me, not surprisingly, you put your finger on it already. You know January 20th 2017, I put my left hand on Ronald Reagan's Bible and I raised my right hand and I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, and it ended with a prayer so help me, god. It's the same oath every elected official takes at every level. More importantly, it's the same oath people that wear a uniform at home and abroad take.
Speaker 1:And I would tell you from very early on, from the first time the internet started to boil in December about some idea that, as vice president, I would have the authority to decide which electoral college votes to count and which not to count, to send back or to reject. I knew it could not have been, so I spent a lifetime studying the American founding. I'd dye my hair to look more like the American founders. It's so important to remember when they signed that Declaration of Independence. If you haven't read it in a while, go read it. It had one complaint, or at least it had many complaints, but they were directed to one person, and I remember saying to my team early in December. I said you know, I've heard this, but I know it's not true, because the founders of this country would never have intentionally vested unilateral authority in any one person. They just fought a war and the American presidency belongs to the American people and the American people alone. As I said, there's almost no idea more un-American than any one person could choose the American president.
Speaker 1:But I went into that process with that conviction and that expectation. But I want to tell you that it wasn't difficult. President Trump and I had had a very close working relationship for four years. I'm very proud of the record of the Trump-Pence administration. We strengthened our military. We revived our economy. We appointed conservatives to our courts, revived our economy. We appointed conservatives to our courts at every level. The world was more secure and more prosperous and I've been a small part of that. It's one of the great honors of my life.
Speaker 1:But I just knew in my heart of heart that all that really mattered was that I kept my oath. And frankly there were some in a well-meaning way that said I might choose to do what our vice president did today and that was have somebody else fill in for them in a joint session of Congress. But I thought of my son who's a Marine Corps major. I thought of my son-in-law as a captain. I thought of everybody who wears a uniform now and in the past, and I thought, when our soldiers get an assignment, they don't get to decide whether that one's particularly uncomfortable. I'm not going to do it, you just. You took the oath to respect the unified chain of command. You execute the mission and I, by God's grace, I went into that with the same attitude.
Speaker 1:But it all came down to a promise, and I tried to communicate that to members of Congress on that day and it was, I believe, in January 2017,. I made a promise to the American people, but I also believe that I made it to Almighty God and, by His grace, I believe, and will always believe, that we did our duty that day. The Bible says he keeps His oath even when it hurts. I know something about that, but I truly do believe that that was a moment deflecting attention from me where, despite the riot that occurred, and the injuries and hardship that occurred, the shock to the country.
Speaker 1:It was a day that our institutions held. It was a day that not just one person but every member of Congress returned to the well and did their job. And I remember, when we reconvened the Senate that very same day, I had a few short words that I'd written, with my family at my side, and I said world will today once again witness the resilience of our system of government. And so, if you think back on that day, I would encourage all of you when you take that oath you're sworn in as an officer of the court, take it just as seriously. And those of you that may serve in uniform, those of you that may serve in public life, do the same. Keep your word, but have the confidence derived from witnessing that day and being alive as Americans and young adults in that day, to know, in the end of the day, our constitutional republic held, and may it ever be and may it ever be.
Speaker 2:Shifting topics for a minute, I read a piece you wrote very recently about China and obviously there's a perception in the world today that America's weak. You know, there's someone not much older than our law fellows here, evan Gershkovitz, who's been sentenced to 16 years in a penal colony by Putin. Another American journalist from Radio Liberty sentenced this week, I think, to six years. We saw the Iranian attack on Israel on October 7th. There are concerns about Taiwan and Taiwan's doing military exercises this week to how to push back an invasion from China. How do we restore an America that its policies are based on peace through strength?
Speaker 1:Well, we have work to do, although, look, military of the United States is still the strongest military the world has ever known and I said earlier this week it was important with all the upheaval and the changes and an assassination attempt on a former president and a sitting president stepping aside from a campaign. We needed to send a message to the wider world that our military is the strongest in history and we're prepared to defend our freedom and to defend our treaty allies and I believe we are capable of that today. The question is a little bit into the future and that's what I wrote about this week at foxnewscom and we're going to be leaning into. I met today with some of the leadership in the Senate to speak about the very important work that Senator.
Speaker 2:Roger.
Speaker 1:Wicker is doing to simply call us back. Look, during the Reagan administration we spent an average of 5% to 7% on military spending. 5% to 7% of GDP. Correct me if I'm wrong, don. We're now at 3%, at a time where the world seems to become more dangerous by the day. Senator Wicker's bill calls for us to return to five. But the important thing to remember is in World War II we spent 38% of our GDP To invest in and strengthen the nation is how one achieves peace and avoids war and, for our part, of advancing American freedom.
Speaker 1:We're going to be part of a chorus as the new Congress is seated saying that we have some catching up to do, not that we're behind any other military, but that you look at the investments that are being made by China in conventional warfare and space assets and you look at the extraordinary and unprovoked aggression of Russia and the new alliance between North Korea, iran and China and Russia.
Speaker 1:Now's the time for us to step forward and to create a new vision for providing for the common defense which is the first obligation of the federal government, but to me it will take vision and articulation and leadership.
Speaker 1:I just came from a meeting with some rising leaders in the House of Representatives who are working on just that. And the last part of this is we have to also recognize what we're dealing with. I mean, russia's unprovoked invasion in Ukraine demands a response by the free world, and America is the leader of the free world. I have no doubt in my mind if, having met Vladimir Putin, if Vladimir Putin overruns Ukraine, it's simply going to be a matter of time, before he crosses a border, that our men and women in uniform are going to go have to deal with him. The world bought into a different thought about 90 years ago and 6 million died worldwide. So, from my standpoint, we have to build up our military, but we also have notably, the Republican Party has to be that voice of American leadership on the world stage, make the investments, have the strength, but then be willing to deploy American military resources to support nations like Ukraine, israel, taiwan in the defense of their own freedom, and that's a pathway toward peace and stability in the world.
Speaker 2:We're going to open this up to some questions. We'll give priority to our law fellows. I did want to ask you one last question. You're a student of history and we've become a very polarized country, sadly divided even over about the account of our history and our founding, and there are those that push an agenda really focused on the flaws and obviously we had slavery, there were flaws at the founding, but you can understand real history and still believe we're an exceptional country.
Speaker 2:You've recently been attacked for a very civil tweet you sent out when the president announced he wasn't going to stand for re-election. And people attack you. I mean, we have this incivility driven by social media. Could you offer some thoughts, maybe, about how we can rekindle and find common ground among us all about those basic core values this country was founded on and bring us together around those the belief in limited government and the rule of law, free enterprise, things that you should believe in, whether you're a liberal or a conservative or a Republican or a Democrat, because they've built this, the greatest country on earth, with such tremendous innovation and improvements in our lives that we should be able to find common ground, and we can't, it seems.
Speaker 1:I'd say two things. Number one is democracy depends on heavy doses of civility. One is democracy depends on heavy doses of civility and if you intend to enter public life, I encourage you to break training. I didn't know this my entire career. If you read my autobiography so Help Me God which is available on Amazon and where all good books are sold, you'll find early in my political career, even despite the fact that I was a professing Christian, I set the standards of my faith aside and got down in the mudslinging world of American politics. But when it was all over, I ended up regretting that and 10 years later, when the opportunity came around to run for office again, I just my wife and I just decided we were going to serve an audience of one. We were going to treat others the way we want to be treated.
Speaker 1:And I'm not talking about not taking on the issues. I love telling people they're wrong about stuff, but it's the difference between telling that you're wrong about that and saying you're a bad person. There's a difference between saying your thinking isn't grounded in American ideals and saying that you don't love your country. And I just would encourage you and, by God's grace, we've aspired to that over the last 20 years and, frankly, I witnessed it today. I was at a large funeral for the late Senator Joe Lieberman which, joe, was one of those people that practiced that level of civility and at his funeral at the Hebrew Temple just nearby our nation's capital, there were as many Republicans as Democrats there were, and I don't know that you asking me that question on the day of his memorial service isn't what we call God's timing at my house, because I will say one other thing, and that is that I believe that is the aspiration of the American people. I know we live in a political time where particularly the media tends to reward the loudest and harshest voices and the clicks go to the people with the harshest, unkindest words. I tell people, you know you get 15 miles out of Washington DC. The people in this country actually get along pretty well and I think the American people long for us to restore a threshold of civility in public life.
Speaker 1:Hit hard on the issues and the differences. There are big debates about the size and scope of government, about values, about America's place in the world, but you can do it in a way that preserves the opportunity to find common cause down the road, and I just would challenge these rising leaders in the room to think about that. There's a reason why in Congress and, frankly, in most legislatures in the free world, there are these arcane rules of debate. I have to refer to you as my friend from Maryland, my good friend, the gentle lady from Pittsburgh. You know you're watching C-SPAN and I know some of you do.
Speaker 1:You watch C-SPAN, you go. Why are they talking like that? What is that? It's because I think our founders have understood, and throughout Western history have understood, that democracy depends on heavy doses of civility, and so I challenge these rising young legal scholars to, whether it's rewarded online or not, model it and never doubt the American people. American people, I think, are looking for leaders, at the end of the day, that will restore that civility to public life and move our nation forward.
Speaker 2:Great, great. Well, let's see. Are there some questions from any of our legal?
Speaker 4:scholars. Thank you for being here, vice President Pence. My name is Brayden Lloyd. I'm also a rising 3L at Notre Dame. My question for you stems from the fact that you were a radio host for some time, which I've always thought that was really fascinating, and so I guess I'll phrase the question like this Somebody who's graduating law school and looking at going to a firm, thinking to themselves I could go to a firm and enjoy the work, even make money, have a good time, maybe potentially be there forever. But there's just like a little voice in the back of my head all the time, every day. That's kind of telling me. You know, maybe there's something else I should be doing, but I don't know exactly what that is. Maybe it's start a business, maybe it's going to politics, maybe it's be a radio host. What advice do you have?
Speaker 1:Listen to that little voice, although I will tell you, I know people who are, you know, my age, who have had extraordinary careers in the law and been people of enormous consequence and they've drawn great satisfaction from their careers. But for me, I loved studying law. I really did, and I went to the McKinney School before it was called that in downtown Indianapolis. I loved the study of the law. Particularly I was passionate about constitutional issues. But I always felt, as you did, that there was something more and that's when I ventured out after practicing law for about three years and I had a chance to run for Congress the first time and I did it.
Speaker 1:I read a study one time that said when people were asked who were in hospice care or on their deathbed, what advice they would give from where they were at the number one. By a lot I mean that 85% of the people said I take more risk. You know I mean you get to that hospital bed. Things take on a different perspective. But that's what. The one thing that came through and I'll tell you the greatest blessings in my life have been when we ventured out and sometimes met with defeat more than once. Right, sometimes come up short, but always moved on to what's next.
Speaker 1:There's a verse in the book of Jonah that my wife and I clung to when we were deciding to run for Congress for the third time. My brother got elected the first time he ran, but she likes to remind people it took me three. But there's a verse in Jonah that says those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs. So I just encourage you don't cling to what you think you're supposed to do. Be more than that. If you're in the practice of law, expand your horizons and look for opportunities to really develop a reputation in the community and be a leader in the law in your community. But if it's beyond that, I encourage you to step out and take risks. Do it in a way that is honorable and forthright and I promise you you won't regret it.
Speaker 4:Thank you, mr Vice President. This has been wonderful. What advice do you have on getting power out of Washington and back to state and local governments? Thank you, Vote Republican.
Speaker 2:We are a nonpartisan organization.
Speaker 1:That was what you call a legal disclaimer. That was what you call a legal disclaimer. Look, I don't think the Tenth Amendment was a new idea at the end of the Bill of Rights. I think it was an exclamation mark at the end of the Constitution. The Constitution itself is a document of limited federal government. And then at the Tenth Amendment it says, just in case you haven't gotten the message, whatever is not delegated here is reserved to the states and the people.
Speaker 1:That's why I would like to see us shut down the Federal Department of Education. It was one of Jimmy Carter's worst ideas and education is a state and local function Law enforcement, firefighting the things that matter most. And, with all due respect to my brother and all of his colleagues, you know when I hear a bump in the night, I don't call my congressman, and so I think those functions of government that you know, thomas Jefferson said you know, government that governs least governs best, and we have to have that message. And with the fiscal crisis that the country's facing and almost nobody's talking about a couple of us in that presidential campaign last year were talking about it and I'll never stop because I'm not going to do that to your generation we're at about $35 trillion in national debt today. We just saw a projection in about 10 years it could hit $50 trillion. I mean the impact on the quality of life, more importantly, the impact on the ability of the United States to provide for the common defense, to have a safety net for people at the bottom of the ladder of opportunity, is all going to be put at risk if we allow that mountain range of debt to continue to grow. But it's going to take vision to do that and I think, rather than just talking about just cut, cut, cut, it's devolving programs back to the states.
Speaker 1:When I was governor of the state of Indiana, we had to go to Washington DC to ask for waivers to operate the federal programs that we ran for the federal government. We ran them, but the federal government told us how to run them and we had to say you know, we'd like work requirements for able-bodied people on welfare, we'd like to introduce health savings accounts into our Medicaid program, and we had to go hat in hand, as though Washington had money and we were coming to ask for the money instead of dirty little secret. There's no money in Washington, it's all from us, it goes to Washington, it passes through and then it comes back. You bypass that whole process. If you move those programs as you reform government, you move them back down to the states. So 10th Amendment is part of the answer. Electing leaders that understand that and I promise you it's a profoundly important question. I commend you for it. Time for one more.
Speaker 3:Thank you, Mr Vice President. I really appreciate you being here and, particularly in 2020, fulfilling your oath. My question is something you touched on about populism in our party. How do we go back to restoring the tenets of traditional conservatism and moving away from this kind of far-removed ideology that's just about winning versus about governing?
Speaker 1:Just raise the banner high. I mean, when I was running for president last year, the media loved to write Mike Pence's problem and a couple of other of my friends who were running. They said their problem is they're running in a Republican party that doesn't exist anymore. It wasn't my experience. Everywhere I went in Iowa, new Hampshire and South Carolina I would talk about strong national defense, american leadership in the world. I visited Ukraine in the middle of my campaign. I would talk about getting back to a balanced federal budget, constitutional limited government, pro-growth policies, free enterprise, the right to life, and everywhere I went, people were cheering. I wasn't surprised, though, because every Trump rally I ever spoke at I spoke at many rallies where there were thousands, or ones where he was also at where there were tens of thousands I would say those same things and the crowd would roar, the roof would lift. I have no doubt this movement remains conservative. It's just there are voices in the Republican Party today who are giving way to more populism on more to conservative principle, but I don't believe it's where the American people are at. I really don't. I think there are other factors at work cross-currents in this election, beginning with the abject failure of the Biden administration at home and abroad and the sense I had that a good percentage of voters just thought it's probably the best bet is a rematch. And I will say to you as rising legal scholars, equal treatment under the law is a core American principle. And I believe, say to you as rising legal scholars, equal treatment under the law is a core American principle. And I believe this lawfare against the former president has offended millions of Americans, rightly, me included. But I'll make my point by telling you I had a guy walk up to me at the end of a town hall meeting in Iowa.
Speaker 1:It was a room about like this and he walked up to me and he said, mr Vice President, he said that was a real good meeting. I liked everything you said. He said you're going to be a great president someday. I said, well, thank you, can I count on your support? And he said no, I got to be for Trump and he said but I'll see you in four years. And I said do you mind telling me why? And he said kind of a summary of what I just said to you. He's kind of like Biden is so bad. But then he said you know, if they can do that to a former president. They can do that to me. We just can't have it.
Speaker 1:Now some people look at the outcome of the nomination process and what was a very successful convention last week and they think the party has changed. I hold a different view. I really do. I think that many more are with us than are with them People that believe in that agenda that Ronald Reagan didn't invite but he made popular 50 years ago. He was the first person to say Reagan said some people call me a great communicator. He said I'm not a great communicator, I just communicate great things. And he said they aren't original to me, they're just American ideals. So my answer to you and all of you is everything you've learned at the Fund for American Studies and this internship program, just go put into practice.
Speaker 2:Articulate them.
Speaker 1:And as you stand up into your career of law or as you get yourself involved in public life. In the days ahead, just hold the banner high and never doubt the American people will rally to your cause, as I believe they will.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to the Liberty and Leadership podcast. If you have a comment or question, please drop us an email at podcast at tfasorg, and be sure to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app and leave a five-star review. Liberty and Leadership is produced at Podville Media. I'm your host, roger Ream, and until next time show courage in things, large and small.
